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<!DOCTYPE html>
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<h1>The W3C JSON-LD Community Group</h1>
<h3><a href="../">Go Back</a></h3>
<hr>
<p><img src="https://www.w3.org/Icons/w3c_home" alt="W3C Logo" /></p><div><div><div class="container"><div class="row"><div class="col-md-8 col-md-offset-2"><h1>JSON-LD CG</h1>
<h2>Minutes for 2023-11-29</h2>
<div class="summary">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt><dd><a href="http://greggkellogg.net/home/about/">Gregg Kellogg</a>, <a href="http://dil.lehn.org/">David I. Lehn</a>, <a href="https://json-ld.org/">Gregory Saumier-Finch</a>, <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/macted">Ted Thibodeau Jr.</a>, <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjaminyoung/">Benjamin Young</a>, <a href="https://json-ld.org/">Niklas Lindström</a>, <a href="https://json-ld.org/">Anatoly Scherbakov</a></dd>
<dt>Chair(s)</dt><dd>Gregg Kellogg</dd>
<dt>Scribe(s)</dt><dd>Gregg Kellogg, Benjamin Young, Pierre-Antoine Champin</dd>
<dt>Agenda</dt><dd><a href="https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/1ab7df94-bb06-440e-a6b9-bc9022018c57/20231129T120000/">https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/1ab7df94-bb06-440e-a6b9-bc9022018c57/20231129T120000/</a></dd>
<dt>Topics</dt><dd><ol><li><a href="#topic-1">YAML-LD</a><li><a href="#topic-2">CBOR-LD</a><li><a href="#topic-3">JSON-LD Issue Discussion</a></ol></dd></dl>
</div>
<div class="information">Gregg Kellogg is scribing.</div>
<h1 onmouseout="$('#link-topic-1').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-topic-1').show()" id="topic-1" class="topic">
Topic: YAML-LD
<a id="link-topic-1" style="display:none;" href="#topic-1">✪</a></h1>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-1').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-1').show()" id="1" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>: Email sent to semweb mailing list on YAML-LD and CBOR-LD <a id="link-1" style="display:none;" href="#1">✪</a></div>
<h1 onmouseout="$('#link-topic-2').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-topic-2').show()" id="topic-2" class="topic">
Topic: CBOR-LD
<a id="link-topic-2" style="display:none;" href="#topic-2">✪</a></h1>
<div class="information">Benjamin Young is scribing.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-2').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-2').show()" id="2" class="comment"><span class="name">David I. Lehn</span>: I'm not too familiar with CBOR-LD. <a id="link-2" style="display:none;" href="#2">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-3').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-3').show()" id="3" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>: I think we discussed modeling the CBOR-LD spec on the YAML-LD spec. <a id="link-3" style="display:none;" href="#3">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... most of it is about content types</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... and then transforming</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... into the internal representation and back</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... there was some discussion on how to deal with extra semantic capabilities</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... like date and datetime in YAML</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... CBOR has similar functionality</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... but not sure we're making use of any of those</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-4').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-4').show()" id="4" class="comment"><span class="name">Niklas Lindström</span>: "CBOR is based on the wildly successful JSON data model: numbers, strings, arrays, maps (called objects in JSON), and a few values such as false, true, and null." <a id="link-4" style="display:none;" href="#4">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... pchampin do you recall using any of those?</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-5').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-5').show()" id="5" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>: The idea was to specify how CBOR was first translated into JSON <a id="link-5" style="display:none;" href="#5">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-6').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-6').show()" id="6" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>: In my version, the idea was to specify how CBOR is translated into JSON (using hints from spec), and then the traditional JSON-LD processing. <a id="link-6" style="display:none;" href="#6">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... there are some hints in the CBOR spec, but not fully specified</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... For producing CBOR-LD from JSON-LD, there are some decisions. For example, how numbers are converted.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... and for producing CBOR-LD from JSON-LD there were many questions around numbers</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... It boils down to a mapping between the base syntaxes.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... There's also a potential CBOR datatype.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-7').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-7').show()" id="7" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>: When I was looking at the CBOR spec, if there was no decimal, it's an int, but if not, it's a float <a id="link-7" style="display:none;" href="#7">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... all JSON numbers would go across as doubles</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... and then you would detect the actual int's and compress those things</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-8').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-8').show()" id="8" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>: I'll take your word for that <a id="link-8" style="display:none;" href="#8">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... the idea was to aim at the most compact representation</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-9').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-9').show()" id="9" class="information">JSON-LD in CBOR (by pchampin?) - <a href="https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-cbor/">https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-cbor/</a> <a id="link-9" style="display:none;" href="#9">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-10').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-10').show()" id="10" class="comment"><span class="name">David I. Lehn</span>: I'm not sure the direction we are taking; we have a spec and implementation which may not be aligned. <a id="link-10" style="display:none;" href="#10">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... I think one of the things in ours is we're keeping the same structure, just using CBOR.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-11').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-11').show()" id="11" class="information">CBOR-LD (by Digital Bazaar) - <a href="https://digitalbazaar.github.io/cbor-ld-spec/">https://digitalbazaar.github.io/cbor-ld-spec/</a> <a id="link-11" style="display:none;" href="#11">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... We have a special codex and known values.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... For example, there's a codex for dealing with base64 data.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-12').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-12').show()" id="12" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>: <a href="https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-cbor/">https://w3c.github.io/json-ld-cbor/</a> <a id="link-12" style="display:none;" href="#12">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-13').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-13').show()" id="13" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>: The best I can tell, the Digital Bazaar version is targeting JSON-LD in the form of an object rather than an array of objects <a id="link-13" style="display:none;" href="#13">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... and the keys and the like are turned into indices</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... and additionally requires external contexts</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... and that seems to go against current trend in practice of inlining contexts</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... and there are magic numbers to signal if your encoding compact or expanded form in the CBOR document</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... there are also a number of other compression opportunities we should discuss</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... we do need to be able to handle more use cases than are currently called for in there</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... and maintaining binary compatibility</div>
<div class="information">Pierre-Antoine Champin is scribing.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... but we may not need to restrict ourselves to that</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-14').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-14').show()" id="14" class="comment"><span class="name">Benjamin Young</span>: We have the 2 specs; we need to decide if we want to compare them in terms of pros/cons <a id="link-14" style="display:none;" href="#14">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... or expand on Digital Bazaar's version as it is already implemented.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... The "JSON-LD in CBOR" spec echoes a lot of what we did in YAML-LD spec.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... It is not taking advantage of special things that CBOR can do.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... The "CBOR-LD" spec uses a number of CBOR-specific things.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... As far as I know, there is only one "CBOR-LD" implementation.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-15').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-15').show()" id="15" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>: I see the two specs as being largely orthogonal <a id="link-15" style="display:none;" href="#15">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-16').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-16').show()" id="16" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>: +1, I also see them as orthogonal <a id="link-16" style="display:none;" href="#16">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... maybe we come out with a base CBOR-LD spec along the lines of YAML-LD</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... and a compressed one that is more inline with what's in the current CBOR-LD 1.0 spec</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... with an eye toward how to signal these different types of CBOR encodings of JSON-LD</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-17').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-17').show()" id="17" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>: Anyone else plan on their own CBOR-LD implementation? <a id="link-17" style="display:none;" href="#17">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-18').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-18').show()" id="18" class="comment"><span class="name">David I. Lehn</span>: From the DB perspective, we're using this stuff and moving it forward as needs. But, we'd like to have a wider viewpoint. <a id="link-18" style="display:none;" href="#18">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... We haven't put forward the effort to consider all the use cases.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... I'm not sure how alternate approaches would factor in.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-19').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-19').show()" id="19" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregory Saumier-Finch</span>: Aside, could someone share the link to the YAML-LD spec? I am having trouble finding it. Thanks in advance. <a id="link-19" style="display:none;" href="#19">✪</a></div>
<h1 onmouseout="$('#link-topic-3').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-topic-3').show()" id="topic-3" class="topic">
Topic: JSON-LD Issue Discussion
<a id="link-topic-3" style="display:none;" href="#topic-3">✪</a></h1>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-20').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-20').show()" id="20" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregory Saumier-Finch</span>: <a href="https://json-ld.github.io/yaml-ld/spec/">https://json-ld.github.io/yaml-ld/spec/</a> [scribe assist by Anatoly Scherbakov] <a id="link-20" style="display:none;" href="#20">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-21').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-21').show()" id="21" class="comment"><span class="name">David I. Lehn</span>: I have some issues that have come up in jsonld.js. <a id="link-21" style="display:none;" href="#21">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... We have people that have questions about defining terms such as "a:b" and "a/b".</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-22').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-22').show()" id="22" class="comment"><span class="name">David I. Lehn</span>: <a href="https://github.com/digitalbazaar/jsonld.js/issues/542">https://github.com/digitalbazaar/jsonld.js/issues/542</a> <a id="link-22" style="display:none;" href="#22">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-23').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-23').show()" id="23" class="information"><a href="https://github.com/digitalbazaar/jsonld.js/issues/542">https://github.com/digitalbazaar/jsonld.js/issues/542</a> -> CLOSED Issue 542 how to handle a legacy context (by lemoustachiste) <a id="link-23" style="display:none;" href="#23">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-24').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-24').show()" id="24" class="comment"><span class="name">David I. Lehn</span>: <a href="https://github.com/digitalbazaar/jsonld.js/issues/543">https://github.com/digitalbazaar/jsonld.js/issues/543</a> <a id="link-24" style="display:none;" href="#24">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-25').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-25').show()" id="25" class="information"><a href="https://github.com/digitalbazaar/jsonld.js/issues/543">https://github.com/digitalbazaar/jsonld.js/issues/543</a> -> Issue 543 Forward slash in JSON key treated as error (by jakubklimek) <a id="link-25" style="display:none;" href="#25">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... This is mostly a usability thing, but people still have data that does it.</div>
<div class="information">Pierre-Antoine Champin is scribing.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-26').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-26').show()" id="26" class="comment"><span class="name">David I. Lehn</span>: I wasn't sure where it is discussed in the spec. <a id="link-26" style="display:none;" href="#26">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... Maybe we can call that out better.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-27').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-27').show()" id="27" class="comment"><span class="name">Benjamin Young</span>: I was wondering about how to best surface issues. Should we just make issues on the spec? <a id="link-27" style="display:none;" href="#27">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... There's also the json-ld.org repo for issues.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... It's mainly wanting a single location to point to.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... The community needs some guidance for doing this.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... Right now it's a big bucket.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-28').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-28').show()" id="28" class="comment"><span class="name">Niklas Lindström</span>: This seems to be explained at <a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld11/#iri-expansion-within-a-context">https://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld11/#iri-expansion-within-a-context</a> but I cannot find the corresponding error code at https://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld11-api/#jsonlderrorcode <a id="link-28" style="display:none;" href="#28">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... The discussions feature in GitHub is useful, and could be turned on in json-ld.org, and route people there.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... That results in issues that can't be closed.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-29').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-29').show()" id="29" class="comment"><span class="name">David I. Lehn</span>: We can point people to <a href="https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/json-ld">https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/json-ld</a> too <a id="link-29" style="display:none;" href="#29">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-30').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-30').show()" id="30" class="comment"><span class="name">Niklas Lindström</span>: I think I found the place where this is mentioned in the JSON-LD syntax spec, but can't find the error code for it, or where it's explicitly handled. <a id="link-30" style="display:none;" href="#30">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... My implementation doesn't through an error, which I would have thought it would.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... I checked the playground, but it didn't through an error until I had data.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-31').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-31').show()" id="31" class="comment"><span class="name">David I. Lehn</span>: I think the JS implementation doesn't see the problem until parsing the data. <a id="link-31" style="display:none;" href="#31">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-32').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-32').show()" id="32" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>: What about [14.2.4.2](<a href="https://w3.org/TR/json-ld11-api#ctd-contains-colon)?">https://w3.org/TR/json-ld11-api#ctd-contains-colon)?</a> <a id="link-32" style="display:none;" href="#32">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-33').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-33').show()" id="33" class="comment"><span class="name">Niklas Lindström</span>: I don't recognize the rule, but I could mis-remember. <a id="link-33" style="display:none;" href="#33">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-34').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-34').show()" id="34" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>: <a href="https://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld11-api/#ctd-contains-colon">https://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld11-api/#ctd-contains-colon</a> <a id="link-34" style="display:none;" href="#34">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-35').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-35').show()" id="35" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>: Going back to the previous discussion on where issues belong ... <a id="link-35" style="display:none;" href="#35">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-36').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-36').show()" id="36" class="comment"><span class="name">Pierre-Antoine Champin</span>: <a href="https://github.com/logseq/logseq/issues/new/choose">https://github.com/logseq/logseq/issues/new/choose</a> <a id="link-36" style="display:none;" href="#36">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... Recently, I tried to submit an issue on a repo, and ended up with the previoius</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... Three of the four are not templets, but links. Maybe we can use a similar trick on json-ld.org, which would put them in the spec repo if appropriate.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... I'm happy to do that, if you have suggestions on what you'd like to see.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-37').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-37').show()" id="37" class="information"><a href="https://github.com/orgs/json-ld/discussions">https://github.com/orgs/json-ld/discussions</a> <a id="link-37" style="display:none;" href="#37">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-38').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-38').show()" id="38" class="comment"><span class="name">Gregg Kellogg</span>: Let's start with the json-ld.org repo. <a id="link-38" style="display:none;" href="#38">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-39').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-39').show()" id="39" class="comment"><span class="name">Benjamin Young</span>: I did turn on discussion on json-ld.org repo, and is essentially json-ld.org's discussion space. Maybe we'll catch other people there. <a id="link-39" style="display:none;" href="#39">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-40').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-40').show()" id="40" class="comment"><span class="name">Ted Thibodeau Jr.</span>: I think we should note that discussions are really a Q&A space and not really a discussion space. <a id="link-40" style="display:none;" href="#40">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... The initial post is a question, and follow-ons are answers; it's not really a threaded discussion</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... NNTP and email lists are more discussions.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-41').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-41').show()" id="41" class="comment"><span class="name">Niklas Lindström</span>: I checked my code and commented that bit out as I failed some tests. <a id="link-41" style="display:none;" href="#41">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... It's probably because it was a 1.0 tests that I didn't detect.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-42').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-42').show()" id="42" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>: <a href="https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/pull/128">https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/pull/128</a> & https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/pull/129; dlehn: https://github.com/digitalbazaar/pyld/pull/182 <a id="link-42" style="display:none;" href="#42">✪</a></div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-43').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-43').show()" id="43" class="comment"><span class="name">Anatoly Scherbakov</span>: I wanted to share some updates; since the last meeting I submitted some YAML-LD PRs. <a id="link-43" style="display:none;" href="#43">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... They are worth another look.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... I shared the spec in a couple of groups without getting any feedback.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-44').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-44').show()" id="44" class="comment"><span class="name">Niklas Lindström</span>: ... Actually.. create term definition step 14.2.4.2, should it have a "If processing mode is not json-ld-1.0" check before it raises the error ...? <a id="link-44" style="display:none;" href="#44">✪</a></div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... Another update, the PyLd library has some PRs I've submitted against it.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... It enables git sub-modules and changes the tests to run against the sub-modules, which should improve developer experience.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... Maybe dlehn and bigbluehat could look at that.</div>
<div class="comment-continuation">... If that's okay, I'll prepare a PR to address an issue about logging and reacting on skipped keys.</div>
<div onmouseout="$('#link-45').hide()" onmouseover="$('#link-45').show()" id="45" class="comment"><span class="name">Niklas Lindström</span>: If anyone has time to check my last question in IRC? (Checked, and I believe that the processing mode test should be added there. – gk) <a id="link-45" style="display:none;" href="#45">✪</a></div>
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