Ukrainian translation in the works

[maksiksq]

I already started, going strong, will make a fork later.

Only issue is that I haven't even fully finished the deck, so my Japanese isn't excellent thus I might lose a little bit of nuance when translating sentences particularly after they were translated to english already, I'll revisit them in the future to account for that.

I'd also like to replace some sentences with culture references, I'll mark those in some way for scalability/updatability.

[donkuri]

Hey, thanks for trying to translate Kaishi! :)

I would be slightly wary of changing the sentences, because:

1. It requires proper sentence audio that has been vetted before.
2. If you are a beginner in Japanese, you have no way of verifying the sentences and their translations.
3. Kaishi is made to be as impartial as possible, and I'd like to keep it that way.

If you can make sure none of these are impacted, then I think you're good to go.

[maksiksq]

I've been thinking about the audio. I doubt I'll be able to find these existing anywhere online because they definitely weren't used in any past learning material, e.g. "トカチェンコさんはどんな人ですか。" instead of "スミスさんはどんな人ですか" (Tkachenko is a common Ukrainian surname).
But I can probably get a native speaker to talk those out, will that be good enough? I'm only going to change a small portion of the sentences, so I think I should be fine. If that doesn't work out, I'll keep them to the original.

I'm not a complete beginner either, the translations I make should be correct, and I'll definitely revisit them in the future once I get better at it.

The final say is obviously up to you, but the main reasons I'm changing these sentences are:

1. knowing the feeling of "ahhh yes, another John Smith, obviously the learning material is not ours and is made with no soul.". I don't think this can be understood fully unless you live in this kinda, painfully bad education system, living only on its own nationalism, where you can get married in an app (i'm not joking), in between the worlds, developing country like Ukraine.
2. seeing "おじいさんはスクーターが嫌いです。" is so freaking funny if you know the thing with electroscooters in Ukraine. In other words, it's still neutral, but to a Ukrainian it's more fun, it adds a little bit of spice, and it's easier to learn things when they're fun (to an extent of course).

If you disagree on any of these, of course, please tell me right away.

[donkuri]

While I understand your points, the main issue is that if you change the sentences, it's effectively speaking not really Kaishi anymore. You're changing it from a translation to a localization, and that requires both skill, and, as you said, native Japanese speakers that you will have to record, verify the pitch accent, normalize the audio and make sure everything holds up with the rest of the audio.
Is that really necessary, and will this lead to more people not dropping the deck?

In a sense, you are right to think the material is not really 'yours' (or even 'mine', as I am not a native English speaker) in the sense that it's a standardized deck, based on English and American translations, so I think it makes sense that the examples would not be typical of your country of origin (regardless of which one it is).
I am not sure this is such a deterrent to using the deck, in that especially since you mentioned it wouldn't affect a lot of sentence, would this really lead to more people picking up the deck and not dropping it?

My other issue is that this sets a precedent I am not sure I want to set, because each time I will need to do quality control by checking the sentences, the audio, etc. Maybe French speakers will want some of their characters to be called Pierre or Martin, and I don't really see the point in doing this, other than thinking 'hey that's kinda cool', which is nice, but it doesn't necessarily lead to better learning or better retention in my humble opinion.

Ultimately, if you think it is absolutely necessary, go for it. I expect you to properly translate and check the sentences you modify, as well as provide native speaker sentence audio with correct intonation, pitch, audio level and file format. If you do do this, I expect the sentences to be right from the get go however. Still, I am not hugely in favor of it if we can avoid it.

[maksiksq]

Alright, I see your points. I definitely would not call this absolutely necessary, I do however genuinely believe it's not just "kinda cool" in the case of Ukraine, the subtle hate for this kinda "americanisation" or "neutral material" exists, and I do believe quite a few people will drop the deck because of it. But I think you're right about the fact it's not Kaishi any more, and this will be setting a precedent for you.

I still want to do it, but I'll keep it to a few sentences near the beginning, to get the person completing the deck into the fact of "it's not some generic soulless stolen material" and I won't do it for names and surnames, but I'll do it for something genuinely creative/relatable instead that will bloom in the face of the user and keep that vibe for the rest of the deck. I guess this does still technically make it a localization but hopefully more like a tinted translation, but most importantly, I hope it keeps it Kaishi. I'll also leave a line in the readme to make sure even this doesn't set a precedent for other translators.

I'll get my Japanese friend to say the sentences if they're up for it. And after they're done, and I'll check their correctness, getting them consistent with the other audio is not a problem, that's a few clicks in audacity after all.

Still want to hear more of your opinion on this, though. It is actually so nice that you care for the accuracy and consistency of the deck, and you don't just go and "do whatever you want", that is very much appreciated and shows how much you care about the people learning. 👍

[donkuri]

Yeah, I get the whole 'neutral material' thing. Obviously, if I could have it my way I would like every version to be fully localized, and to make full sense and to be more engaging. As you can imagine this would be a lot of work, so I can't manage it all.

I think as long as you clearly state your reasons, and it's not an overwhelming majority of sentences (especially if it's concentrated at the beginning), then it is probably fine. I empathize with the issue of keeping people on board -- this is basically why Tyogin and myself made Kaishi, among other reasons. If you truly think this is a culturally relevant issue (and you certainly know this better than I do), then go for it. What I would expect out of you are the following:

1. A clear statement at the beginning of the README at the very least, and ideally in the first card of the deck (the one with information).
2. Good, quality sentences, ideally that have been checked with someone else (a native would be preferable for more natural Japanese). Make sure you do not introduce overly technical and complex words in Japanese, the deck is for beginners.
3. Properly normalized audio and correct pitch accent. If you don't know how to check pitch accent, we can take a look later.
4. Obviously, a reference back to the original deck.

I hope this both clarifies and makes it easier to contribute. I can't wait to have one more translation up and running. Thank you for your work and good luck. :)

[maksiksq]

Yeah, sounds good! :)
And I'll ask you about the pitch accent later.

[maksiksq]

Just found a minor typo, in the pitch accent note of くん.
It says 平田ちゃん instead of 平田くん

[maksiksq]

Another minor thing, I believe, in the translation for 以上:
夏は３０度以上の日が何日もあります。
translated to English as:
"There were several days in the summer that were 30 degrees Celsius or more. "
If I'm not mistaken, this should be
"There are several days in the summer that are 30 degrees Celsius or more. "
or like
"In summer, there are several days when the temperature is over 30 degrees."

The original is not past tense.

[donkuri]

Ah that's a good catch, thank you! It'll be added to the next release.

[maksiksq]

Found another minor thing, in the translation for 結果, the sentence 「試合の結果を早く知りたい。」is translated as:
"I want to know soon the results of the game."
I guess this is not a necessarily a typo, but that's not how anyone would normally say that. Instead, it's:
"I want to know the results of the game soon."
or in this case more like
"I want to know the results of the game as soon as possible."

[donkuri]

I'll let you add all of these here and when you are done checking the deck I'll make sweeping changes then. Thanks!

[maksiksq]

Yep, and here's another:

In the sentence for 移動:
"We traveled around by a rental car."

Travelled is written with 2 l's

[maksiksq]

btw, we have a literal government font for english and ukrainian, I'm not kidding it's called e-Ukraine. I think I'm gonna use that for the deck, just gotta figure out how to add it to the .apkg if that's possible.

[maksiksq]

Update: Tonight I finished grinding all the translations. Right now I'm double-checking each word, also we have gendered case endings for words in Ukrainian that I'll have to match up to each audio depending on the gender of the speaker, I figured I'll do them while double-checking to make it faster so that's what I'm doing.

I also marked any and all words and sentences that I was even slightly unsure of, among other things, and I'll revisit those eventually. Although I'm pretty sure that if something is not correct currently (and is not a typo) it's a few words or sentences with a hardly translatable meaning that can be easily picked up in conversation/reading in the grand scheme of things. I tried to do as much research as possible on each one I didn't know too.

I have a decently sized list of mistakes and suggestions that I have to rewrite properly, and I bet I'll find some during checks, so I'll send it when I finish checking.

[maksiksq]

Proofreading wow:
Ones I already sent:

• In くん:
  It says 平田ちゃん instead of 平田くん

• In 以上:
  夏は３０度以上の日が何日もあります。
  translated to English as:
  "There were several days in the summer that were 30 degrees Celsius or more. "
  If I'm not mistaken, this should be
  "There are several days in the summer that are 30 degrees Celsius or more. "
  or like
  "In summer, there are several days when the temperature is over 30 degrees."
  The original is not past tense.

---

And here are the other mistakes I noticed:

• In 皆さん:
  Has dialogue formatting despite not being a dialogue type sentence.

• In 掃除:
  Confusing translation, should be "cleaning" not "clean", I remember thinking that it was a na-adjective at first, particularly figuring that out from the fact 綺麗 has a bunch of meanings.

• In 本日:
  本日のランチはハンバーグでございます。
  "Today's lunch is hamburger steaks." I think it's meant to say "hamburgers" not "hamburger steaks" (not hamburg, reread it) -> "Today's lunch is hamburgers"

• In 鋭い:
  鋭い刃物で指を怪我した。
  "I injured my finger on the sharp knife." -> "I injured my finger with a sharp knife." That's just more natural.

• In いつの間にか:
  The pitch accent note has "[4] is also very common.", and similar for 硬い, it's a reference to somewhere (pitch accent pattern i assume?), but where is the reference for it? There is no context. And after searching for a bit I can't find it and I imagine most people won't either? Or I'm missing something obvious.

• In 用意:
  Should be "prepare, ready oneself" -> "preparation, getting ready" or "preparation, ready oneself", unless I'm missing something that's confusing since it's a suru noun, particularly with the example sentence.

• In さん:
  Doesn't really matter, just an inconsistency, but it's the only word with a little comment in the reading for some reason - "(used with adults of equal status)".

• In 自由:
  Pretty sure it should be "free" -> "freedom, free"

---

Ok and now these are just small things that don't matter and my suggestions which are mostly my opinion, which might be very, very wrong. I think for most of these you'll learn them eventually anyways, but the less confusion the better I guess:

• 色々 is translated as "in various ways", I think it should be "various" instead because it being a na-adjective that way is far more common as far as i know. Or both or "various, variously", or maybe "diverse, variously" to not repeat although that's kinda weird and would assume a difference with 様々 in the same deck, which is basically a synonym for "various" I think.

• You can probably mark 諸頼 and 証拠 as proof and evidence respectively? Although I'm not sure about the specifics.

• I remember in core2k 冷たい is marked as "cold (to touch)" and 寒い as "cold (temperature)". And I see no reason why not.

• Not sure what's your policy on making it not exactly 1500 cards, but it's marked out from 3 to #1504 anyways cause of the first few spreadsheet lines I think, so maybe you could make two separate cards for ほとんど - "almost, mostly" and ほとんど - "hardly" (or "hardly (with neg. verb)?"), cause it's very confusing. Or leave a note there.

• Also where's 暑い? If not a new card, you can just leave it as a note in 熱い.

• There's a both a card for お金 and 金. I think that might be unnecessary.

• In ちょうど:
  Maybe add precisely (or exactly) as a third word to the translation? "just, as if” -> "precisely, just, as if" First time I encountered the card it didn't make sense to me at all until i looked it up on yomitan.

• In 青い:
  Maybe it should be green in addition to blue too? Even if there's 緑 it's still better to mention that in my opinion.

• In 暮らす:
  This could be written a little more concisely: "I think I would like to live in Japan all the time." -> "I think about that, I would like to live in Japan all the time"

• In 量:
  This restaurant's spaghetti's portions are big.
  spaghetti portions not speghetti's, that's just kinda weird

• 連れてくる can be interpreted differently as "bring over" (bring a thing over here), instead should be "bring someone along"

• In 飛ばす:
  子供が紙飛行機を飛ばしています。
  "The child is flying a paper airplane." Is the child flying on a paper airplane, or is he launching a paper airplane? I think it's the latter, but the translation of the sentence is a bit confusing initially. Also, the translation of the word could be "fly, launch" instead of "fly, shoot" or something like that? But I might be missing something.

• 背負う has "carry on one's back; shoulder", the only card with a semicolon in its translation I think, which is just a bit weird at that point.

• In 防ぐ:
  Please stretch well to prevent injuries. -> Please stretch often to prevent injuries.
  Just a bit of extra clarity imo, even if you still could say that in english kinda

• 一度も:
  Instead of "not even once, never" -> "(not) even once, (not) ever" maybe?

• Three cards have "Slightly idiomatic" in notes, might be confusing for some people particularly cause it can also mean the same as colloquial (that's what I thought at first), why not something along the lines of "Used metaphorically less" (maybe come up with something better, my brain is fried by now).

• In 恐れる:
  I find the word "apprehend" there kinda weird, although I couldn't find a better alternative and I think most people will still get it.

• In よる:
  ”be caused by, be due to”, the "be due to" part in the translation can be a bit confusing, since in english we can use it for times and deadlines (e. g. The assignment is due 10 pm), I think we can't do that in japanese with よる. It's probably best to only keep the first meaning.

[maksiksq]

Alright, I'm done.

I've used my old fork page for the repo:
https://github.com/maksiksq/KaishiUa
And I already made a release, check it out, maybe want to ask or change something:
https://github.com/maksiksq/KaishiUa/releases

I didn't end up doing the custom sentences, i got some work to do, and I have no time, I might do them in the future but I also wanna make a kana deck if I have time, which takes priority.

Once you make the changes above I'll sync them to the deck, but most sentences and words didn't really translate literally anyway or had some meanings that would be easier to understand in ukrainian so a lot of them are accounted for already

Resisting the urge to name it YuAshi was so hard. I might also rewrite the readme from the ground up later.
And that's it! I think.

[maksiksq]

Just shared it on AnkiWeb as well, here, although it's probably not up yet.

Also, it chose 舐める as the first sample from the deck, which is kinda silly but weird, I hope those change once I update it.

[donkuri]

Thank you so much! I am currently in the middle of grading exams so I will come back to this in a bit, but it looks cool!

[maksiksq]

Good luck on your exams, and take your time. Had mine in december so that's why I have time to do something like this lol. I spent 9 hours today waiting in queues for a mandatory military check-up thing from the morning till the evening, did Anki most of that time, so I did over 1000 custom schedule reviews today, at this point with all the time I spent translating the deck and all of this I'm legit gonna get dreams about Kaishi, my life has been occupied by Kaishi, Kaishi is water, Kaishi is air, Kaishi is life- nevermind I'm just too tired after all of this

[Isopodd]

Yep, and here's another:

In the sentence for 移動: "We traveled around by a rental car."

Travelled is written with 2 l's

This is actually correct – "traveled" is the American English spelling, and as far as I remember, Kaishi tends to use American spellings

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/traveling-vs-travelling-usage

[maksiksq]

This is actually correct – "traveled" is the American English spelling, and as far as I remember, Kaishi tends to use American spellings

Ah, I looked at my autocorrect browser extension which is set to British English and somehow didn't double check it properly, good thing you noted that, thanks